Lawyers: To pay or not to pay?

[Dee]

Recently my husband received a letter in the mail stating his last lawyer is asking for more money above what he originally quoted. Of course this is the second time this has happened, with different lawyers.

At the moment this has us fit to be tied! The first lawyer, who took my husbands case ended up knowing little to nothing about family law, took the case anyway, screwed it up and it trying to get an addiotional $500+. Due to that lawyer making such a royal mess of things, he found another lawyer, this time through the UAW where he works. He was told that they (the UAW) would have to refer him to someone outside the network b/c the children's stepfather also works for the same company. The UAW assured him that there would not be an issue with his representing my husband.

This lawyer charged $750, which covered the preperation of the motion and order, as well as it covered the charges for a transcript which he requested. My husband could have received the transcript for free, but of course he submitted the paperwork and was never contacted.

In the end, my husbands lawyer talked him out of going in front of the judge, knowing all along it was ALL he really wanted, but stated that he would be viewed as "uncooperative". Mind you, when my husband showed up, his lawyer was in the middle of a pow-wow with both the mother's lawyer and their caseworker, who felt it necessary to inform my husbands lawyer that in her opinion he's a trouble maker and she doesn't like him (now that is a conflict of interest).

After his lawyer gave him the complete shaft he sent him a letter the next day which was extremely insulting (is in my pics) and was nothing more than his trying to cover his own butt for not doing the job he was hired to do and ending up, more or less, working for moms lawyer!

If that wasn't bad enough, we just got another bill! Apparently the $750 we gave him wasn't enough and he wants another $500+, which we completely disagree with as he was barely worth what he was already paid considering he did absolutely nothing!

Can he file a grievance against this attorney for changing his price after everything was said and done? (last two lawyers did this)

Is there anything that can be done to avoid my husband being taken to court for payment of these monies as he completely disagrees that he owes what they are now trying to charge.

Any information or advice would be apprecaited as we're having just as difficult of a time with lawyers as we are with the children's mother and the courts combined. They're all money hungry, with bad attitudes, and a magic bags filled with quick solutions that make them rich while wreaking havoc on the family and making matters worse!

Thanks in advance to anyone who replies!

[Mark Godbey]

Did you sign a contract? I did not see contract anywhere? A written contract would give you some recourse to get your money back. There is no such thing as a verbal contract. Don't let anyone fool you about a verbal contract. I would file a complaint with the Bar Association and let it be done.

[Dee]

That's what we would like to do, we just are not sure if this is something that is grounds for a complaint. We're not asking for any $ back, we already wrote off what he was given, but we don't feel that it's right that he's now asking for more. That's what I don't see how lawyers get away with.

[stuart showalter]

In Indiana a complaint with the disciplinary commission of the Supreme Court can be filed against a lawyer in a situation such as this. That has stopped this type of harassment of others.
When anyone is seeking the assistance of counsel he or she should have an advocate for them whose interest is not in making as much money as possible while doing as little work as possible.

[Dee]

I agree. Unfortunately my husband has already been through four or five lawyers, with everyone being worse than the last. But I guess we can't really expect them to care too much when they get paid no matter what happens, win or lose. Hopefully we can find some sort of complaint process here that he can use because these lawyers get away with way too much as it is!

[Jody]

1.) Do you have an engagement letter? If you do, go over it with a fine tooth comb. If it is a "scope of services" agreement (one flat fee) or non-existent, then attorney boy is SOL. If not, question EVERY item on his bill and request copies of invoices for any and all costs listed. Look closely at when funds were dispersed from his Trust account for services provided to you. The Trust issue is the most feared of all bar complaints. They can lose their Bar Card and the Bar does an extensive investigation (both professionally and personally) into their financial records.

2.) File an ethics complaint with the state bar. (There is a sleazy lawyer here in Tampa by the name of Julian Andrew Hayes, Jr. who employs the exact same tactics, so I do know exactly what you are talking about and it gets better, if you have a dispute with an attorney, such as the one above, and refuse payment for incompetence/ethics, your next attorney will get to hear about that so opposing counsel can scare the new lawyer into thinking that they won't get paid)

3.) In Addition, File a "Fee Dispute" with state bar. Send a copy of the bill and itemized each contested charge. Also, beware of being charged attorney rates for clerical activity (such as sending a fax). Question telephone conversations with third parties that should have only taken a fee minutes and where you were charged exaggerated time. (See item #1). Make sure they are not charging you twice for the same service (description will have very similiar language just "rearranged") - make them justify it, demand to know the dates of said tasks if not provided on invoice. More often than not, this gets resolved through the Bar. Acquaint yourself with the Bar's webpage, they usually have information, instructions and sometimes forms for fee disputes. If necessary, hire a law student (one who is approaching gradutation) who is interested in family law and pay them to help you research (rate should be about $50/hour), they are usually willing participants and they have free access to online research sites such as Westlaw, so you won't have to pay those exorbitant research fees.

4.) And if it were me, I would file an ethics complaint against opposing counsel just in time for the next hearing. Any dirty tricks he engaged in, etc. - a law student should be able to assist with this as well, (Andrew Hayes likes to send service of process to an old addresses and then, since you didn't appear, send you a brief synopsis of the outcome of the hearing in happy detail of how you just got hosed.)

[Dee]

Hubby had to sign a Hourly Legal Representation Agreement, which I assume is the same thing. Pretty much, as far as I can tell, it says that he was working for $70/hour, with billing in increments of 15 minutes minimum, everything else is all a bunch of legal mumbo-jumbo.

I'm putting a copy of the agreement that was signed in my pics as well for anyone that might can assist me in decoding it. lol

Also, thinks for the info on the complaints too. I've visited the State Bar website numerous times, but I can't ever seem to find what it is that I am looking for. I looked before because as I said, this is not the first lawyer that has put my husband through this as the one just prior to this lawyer, as well as the one before that, all use the same MO.

Thanks and I will keep looking into it.

[Dee]

Just wanted to post a quick update on this just FYI...

Hubby met with the lawyer and the office manager last Friday. In a nutshell, the lawyer agreed that the $500+ was too much and agreed to settle for less ($272). However, when hubby asked for it in writing, the lawyer became agitated and refused to do so. Hubby left him $50, returned a few hours later with the remaining $222 and asked that he note on the receipt that it was "paid in full". Again the lawyer refused to do so, but upon hubby insisting, he did note as such on our copy, just not on the carbon copy. To say the least it has made us more than a little uncomfortable.

Also, hubby had requested that he be given back all the documents which we've supplied to him, along with a CD which was given to him which contained numerous medical, CPS, court, and other miscellaneous records. Majority of everything we got back, but he claims he was unable to get the CD back, which makes us even more uncomfortable as it had all our important records on it and we're scared it ended up getting in the hands of the kids mom's lawyer, so we don't know what to do there.

So according to our records, we're paid up in full and don't owe anything. The only thing left to do is get the CD returned.

Does anyone know for sure if this is something we can complain about somehow? The lawyer didn't listen or work with his client at all and admitted that he was working with the caseworker, even after admitting the same caseworker didn't like my husband. There are far too many issues to list here, but how do we find out if we can file a complaint or grievance... anything?

[Richard]

I just read your representation agreement. First, the agreement says you will be billed for all time, from "first commenced" to "time file is closed" at the hourly rate. The $750 is the "retainer" fee, to be applied against the total.

Parapgraph #7, starting with "In the event that the fee for legal services ... exceed the retainer fee, Client agrees to pay for such excess time ..." says it all.

So, you cannot complain that he charged more than $750, since the contract states that he will if the time exceeds the retainer.

What I found unusual in the contract is that it states you will be billed for the staff time (para. 3) and it does not specify a different rate than his. That would have been the norm. However, his rate to you of $70/hour is so low for a lawyer, he can argue it is an average and justifies the one rate for all work by him and staff.

I WOULD be concerned that the lawyer didn't want to mark "paid in full" and did so only on your copy. That leaves room for him to say it's not on his copy and he didn't write it. The contract gives him a lien if not paid in full. You have a legitimate complaint on that point. You could write the attorney, and ask for "paid in full" to be put into a letter to eliminate the present ambiguity, or else you will file a complaint for the billing improprieties. He will probably do it. Be sure to say for the "billing improprieties", so that you can file on the other points without him saying you agreed to not file a complaint (of any type implied) if he provided the letter on the billing issue.

You also have a valid concern about the CD. Did he account to you for why he can't return it? Where is it? If he lost it, or gave it to someone else, that would be a valid complaint for neglect. If the any of the information on it was not public, and he gave the CD to someone, then there might be an issue of breach of confidentiality, in my opinion,and also a basis for a complaint. If that information was ever used against you, he could be liable for damages, but you would have to prove it came from that one CD he had.

If you can show that the attorney did not handle a family law case properly, and show that he did not know certain things that an experienced family law attorney would, you could also file a complaint for incompetence (what he should have known) and/or neglect (what he could have known or done, by research, etc.).

As I found out in my case, depending on how much time you are willing to put in for the satisfaction of a complaint, chose your battles accordingly. There are so many wrongs committed in the legal system, you can't fight them all. Accept that, and fight for the ones that will bring benefits to you.

As they say, "a good offense is the best defense". One of the best complaints is to file is against opposing counsel for any unfair tactics in a case. They have a duty to the directly to the court and indirectly to you, to operate in a fair manner while advocating for their client. Since attorneys are so fearful of the Bar because they can lose their license and their income, they will often change their behavior immediately, when they see someone willing to stand up for themselves. Few people do. It can prevent dirty tactics being used or repeated. Letting your attorney know you've filed against opposing counsel also puts your attorney on notice that you expect professional behavior and to be treated fairly.

If you can't find the complaint forms on the Bar's website, call them and they will send it to you. Read their instructions carefully. Understand that the Bar does not advocate for your position. They only check if the attorney complied with the rules he is supposed to follow, which also includes competency and neglect.

Also, it is important to understand that what a client wants to accomplish and what is realistic are conflicting issues that the attorney must deal with. The client often sees it how they think it should be, and the attorney has

[Richard]

(continued)

to deal with the realities of what likely can be accomplished. Simply put, does the attorney represent your best interests, or what you want to do? It's an important distinction because the courts themselves are full of bad decisions and practices that the attorney cannot change. That said, I've had a several bad attorneys, too.

Best of luck to you and your hubby!

[Dee]

Thanks Richard, you made some very good points, and I'm going to share this post with hubby as soon as he gets home.

Also, there are just a couple quick things I wanted to clear up...

First, the reason the lawyer was only $70/hr was because my hubby works for one of the big three and they offer UAW legal services to their employees, that's how he got the discount. The same lawyer charges others almost three times that.

Second, The reason we did not agree with his charging the extra $500+ was because it was being charged due to the lawyer having to handle the fact that mom and her lawyer were trying to get my husbands lawyer removed from the case, which should never have happened in the first place as my husband was assured through the UAW that there is no legal reason why he can't represent my husband and there is no conflict of interest, therefore the whole thing should never have taken place.

Third, he didn't live up to anything he was going to do. My husband made it extremely clear to him that he wanted to speak to the judge, that's all he wanted because mom's lawyer has a knack for getting them to agree to BS in the lobby and never seeing the judge. This time however mom and my husband were facing contempt charges (another load of BS... mom violates orders for nine years, they do nothing, and when they do they bring in both her and my husband who's never violated anything). Hubby made this point several times over because moms lawyer is a sneaky SOB. Well day of court, guess what, the lawyer was all geared up to make another agreement and my husband didn't get in front of the judge, who would have sent mom to jail that very day had they gotten to because he had told her he would just weeks prior.

As far as the CD goes, all he said was that he couldn't find it. He also said he would have his secretary send a letter about the payment, which we didn't get either. Hubby thinks that he (the lawyer) is trying to pull a fast one on the office manager because he wasn't willing to budge on the fee at first, then suddenly changed his mind after my husband made several arguments. We cannot prove if he did lose the CD, if he gave it away, or what happened to it, but yes, there was information on it which was not public record. All the CPS reports for the past ten years (like five or six), plus all the records for CPS reports which were not investigated. Medical records for the children, court documents, etc.

Also, you mention filing a complaint for "unfair tactics". Do you know where I can find more information on that because that it my husbands biggest problem right now is the tactics mom's lawyer uses. Like I said, hubby forewarned his lawyer that moms will drag it out as long as possible, he does so knowing that my husband usually is limited on what he can spend on a lawyer, thus making sure my husband runs out of money before they ever get in front of the judge and 90% of the time he is told he will see the judge only to get there and find out moms agreed to some dumb BS she has no intentions of following through on. The Parental Cooperation Order (also in my pics) was one of their great ideas to settle in the lobby. Not only has mom not followed it or the consent order which was attached for it since the day it was put into effect, but their caseworker, the courts, etc. all say they cannot enforce it, yet Friend of the Court Bureau, lawyers and everyone else says differently b/c it is an order that is signed.

Basically he believes in the Placebo pill I guess because they're always throwing something at my husband that will "make things better", which it never changes anything, it only complicates their situation more. But because mom constantly gets away with violating orders and never suffers any consequences, she's not likely going to change her behavior. Anytime my husband tries to stick to his guns and get in front of the judge, they tell him its a bad idea because it will make him look like the uncooperative one, when he's by far the problem.

Another issue we have with this lawyer is the fact that he outright told us that my husbands case worker doesn't like him (my husband). Now we're under the impression they're supposed to have an unbiased opinion, which this is far from being unbiased. Shouldn't hubby's lawyer have sought to have the caseworker removed? She has final say in their case 95% of the time and she's admitting she doesn't like my husband. Her reason was because he files complaints, so she basically doesn't like him because he makes her do her job and we all know how these people feel about that!

Anyway, thanks again for the information and I'm going to make sure that hubby looks into everything you said because this isn't right. People have a hard enough time dealing with the courts and spiteful exes without having to throw in scheming lawyers, most of which are nothing but glorified ambulance chasers. lol.

Thanks again and if you know where I can't find more information as mentioned about that would be GREAT!

Thanks and good luck!!
~Dee~

[Richard]

Dee,

A few other thoughts.

If you have any issues that could be taken to a regular civil court, instead of family court, you might do better there. For example, if the ex commited fraud and you were damaged, you could take it to family court, but no much will happen. But if you sued for fraud in civil court, things would be different. In family court they operate under the divorce/family law and it's goals. In civil court they operate under the fraud laws. When I took my case for fraud to civil court, it was totally different. For one thing, each party pays their own attorney's fees. I am no lawyer, but I think, for example, if the ex denies your hubby time with his kid(s) in violation of the court's order which establishes his time, he would have an action in civil court for for the loss of companionship (there is a different term, but I can't think of it now)

If the ex contested your attorney representing you, claiming a conflict of interest, it would be appropriate for you to have to pay for your attorney's time. If there was no conflict of interest, it's nothing your attorney did wrong, and the result of the other side's actions. If it was determined that there was no conflict (as opposed to just being ignored if there was), then you have a GOOD complaint against the other attorney. There are specific Bar rules that determine conflict of interest. The fact that that UAW says there is no conflict doesn't have any weight in the courtroom because the UAW wasn't there, even though it may be accurate. The ex brought up something solely to cause more litigation expense, and that's not your attorney's fault. His only options are resolve it, or voluntarily withdraw. Which would you prefer (knowing you might also lose part of the retainer if he did withdraw)?

I would look into the fact that the attorney charged his staff time at the same rate as his time. You are entitled to a discount on services, not a shifting of the hourly rate from the attorney to his staff.

If you have some evidence that your case worker said she didn't like your husband, you have grounds to disqualify her from your case. Your attorney saying she doesn't like him, if that is merely his opinion based on her demeanor, may not be sufficient. You would have to read the rules about disqualification of case workers. In the case of a judge, if you present arguments showing bias, he has to disqualify himself. Example: you claim the judge said "I'm not going to allow Mr. Jones to present his arguments because I don't like him. Now, the claim doesn't have to be accurate, just show a basis for disqualification on its face. Of course, if it's a lie, then you could be prosecuted for perjury. But the point is, the judge would have had to disqualify himself anyway, because on the face, it shows bias. Now, if you said "The judge has interferred with my testifying and presentation of my case by terminating hearings before the parties were done" would also show bias on it's face, yet not be subject to perjury, as long as at some point the judge did it. So check into the rules for the case worker and see if there are grounds for disqualification.

[Dee]

The primary reason he didn't feel he should pay for the situation with mom's lawyer trying to get his removed is because he had forewarned his lawyer long before this happened about her lawyers tactics. He assured my husband that knowing this in advance, he would steer clear of his tricks. But the day of court was a different story.

We personally would have preferred in that case if he would have withdrew himself because in the end our $750 retainer fee was already paid for no reason.

The part where the lawyer said the caseworker didn't like my husband was, according to the lawyer, straight from the caseworkers mouth. We already know she doesn't because of a grievance that was filed against her for not doing her job in the first place. Not to mention that at that time Gov. Granholm was also involved. There have been non-stop issues for nine, going on ten years, but the Friend of the Court doesn't address them as they're supposed to. A year ago the caseworker told my husband to his face to file a complaint every time the children's mother violated the court order and in the caseworkers words, "she won't make it through summer before she lands herself back in court or in jail". Of course that was what the caseworker said when the Parental Cooperation Order was issued in April 2007. He followed her advice and filed a complaint every time mom violated the court order and I don't believe he received one reply on any of them. However, months later, when mom filed a complaint that my husband didn't take the kids to their dance class (she purposely scheduled it so it would interrupt his weekday parenting time, which he changed work schedules, so now it conflicts with his work). He notified both mom, the kids, and the dance studio well in advance, but THAT was what their last show cause was issued for and it was issued against BOTH of them. So it took mom filing an unwarranted complaint to get their caseworker to have a show cause issued. Now the caseworker has an attitude because she believes that my husband is trying to use the FOC to resolve issues so he doesn't have to pay even more $$ to file a motion. Which all I can say is DUH!

As far as legal fees goes, hubby and mom always pay their own. They always ask the court to make the other party pay, but it has never happened, not once.

But am I understanding what you said correctly, that this is enough to complain on moms lawyer and not hubby's?

We don't really care at this point, but someone should be held accountable, especially when it's breaking our bank and nothing is ever resolved. These caseworkers are such idiots. They have watched mom agree to everything under the sun for years and EVERY time she violates the agreement within the week, most the time she violates it the SAME DAY!

Between the useless lawyers my husband manages to attract, moms lying scheming lawyer, and caseworkers with preconceived notions, their case never gets anything resolved and I swear it seems like they do their best to make it even more complicated and more impossible to do anything about.

We can't even get the courts to order a counselor for the kids when we have records from three they were taken to last year alone, all of which said they were suffering from adjustment disorder, and one even admitted that she felt the mother was only trying to find someone to ally against the father. That's a long story in and of itself. But instead they ordered that Parental Coordination Evaluation, which so far is a joke and a half! I already told my husband that I am not going again as all the woman did was tell me to shut up, keep my mouth closed, and stop telling my husband what to do! I couldn't believe it! I'm not going to be treated like that because two grown adults don't get along and a building full of more adults can't figure out how to help!

Anyway, I sent hubby a link to this post because there's no way I'll remember all this. I just got done telling littlegirl that I try to cram so much in my brain, sometimes I feel like I am on overload. lol

THANKS!! and sorry for writing a book!